Self-Protection Archives
No Adrenalin Dump
BN asked: I would like to address some points that
you made in the previous "Mindset" thread.
You stated that you don't get an adrenal rush in confrontations, and that
getting an adrenal rush is "starting off on the wrong foor." I found this
surprising as I always thought that an adenaline rush is a default state.
If you don't get one, is this due to your genetics, life experiences, or
would you put this mostly down to your training?
If you have any further tips on how to do this it would be much appreciated.
I am also curious how you feel in a confrontational situation, if you don't
get the adrenal rush, how do you feel? Please be aware that I am not trying
to solicit fight stories, nor am I asking for some kind of vicarious
interest.
I would like to know how to access your mental state when in a
confrontation.
Steve replied:
My perception of the adrenaline response is that it's
fear-based. My personal response to a confrontation isn't fear. I actually
want the fight. THat's the difference.
I don't even know what an adrenaline rush feels like. Honestly. I don't know
if it's a D4DR thing, hard-wired, or down to my life circumstances, or both.
For you, I have no real answer other than one which is based on common
sense, which would be simply to immerse yourself in situations which would
normally call for an adrenal rush, so that they become routine. And that
would be a part of your training. If I was training you, everything you'd
learn would be under stress. You'd be pushed to a point of stress before I
even started working a move with you. I'd want to snapping like an alligator
at reflex level, because cortically you haven't got that hard-wiring to want
to fight. So whatever you'd be doing, I'd have to condition you to do it by
reflex.
But for me personally, and I know that there are other people out there like
me, it's different. The gun, in me, is already loaded and cocked. After a
fight or an emergency situation, I feel great. It's a kind of euphoria, a
chemical reward for the risk.
People can pick it up off me, but whether it lasts outside the gym long
enough for it to become part of their persona, I don't know. And much of
this is circumstantial. You really don't know what you've got in you or what
you haven't got, and the only way you find out is to put yourself in a
punishing regimen of training. One that is more challenging than the fight
you're going to have to fight. And being in the company of a trainer, or
fellow trainees, who have that persona you're seeking to achieve. Immerse
yourself in that, and then you'lll find out what you have to do to rise to
the level.
You can't sit back at home and visualize. Not on this one. You have to be in
the challenging, punishing situations and in the company of tougher guys,
and then you've got an impression of how you need to be. THen you can go
home and empathise or visualize.
I hope this helps shed some light.
BN wrote: Yes, that's very helpful. Particularly
what you said about visualizing not being enough and actually needing to be
in a stressful situation.
Thanks.
Ken Milling wrote:
| Quote: |
| But for me personally, and I know that there are other people out there like me, it's different. The gun, in me, is already loaded and cocked. After a fight or an emergency situation, I feel great. It's a kind of euphoria, a chemical reward for the risk. |
It seems to me (I could be wrong) that there wouldnt be too many people who would have a similar experience to your self. I have read lots of pieces that have been written by experienced door men & most seem to 'manage fear' & still function anyway to varying degrees.
I was emailed by a guy who trained with you a few months back (he has trained with many high grade karateka etc) who stated that when he was in your presence & you clicked into that 'other' state of being it was very scarey, he had never experienced this before. I guess all of this is difficult if not impossible to articulate in a post.
I have no doubt that the above experience is of value. How much can we change? But ultimately if we cant physically function in a fight & are debillitated/inhibited by fear then the physical training is almost a waste of time without the essential mindset.
It seems to me that when you teach you are facillitating experience for participants that they have never had before, maybe didnt know they were capable of.
In a previous email I mentioned the 'hell realm' & you replied 'Yes, however, there are different levels of hell'. It is these other levels of 'hell' that I guess many guys who do not have fight experience are interested in.
Just to clarify. When I stated 'Can we change' I have no
doubt that some people can, I have experience of this (I wont go into this
as I will end up off topic). The million $ question is how much can we
change, to what degree.
I was training the other day on my own & wondering how I might fight if I
had your mind in my body. I hope this doesnt come across as weird but it is
an interesting way to train & think/visualise. I will be experimenting with
this one later today when I train with a friend.
I suspect that even though some people say that you are genetically gifted
you would probably still be a great fighter even if you were in a body that
was less than ideal. Again it seems to come back to mindset, as you so often
emphasise.
Nick Hughes wrote: Steve, Hope you don't mind me
sticking a bit in here...
| Quote: |
| I was training the other day on my own & wondering how I might fight if I had your mind in my body. |
Ken, I spoke about this very thing the other day in another post...
| Quote: |
| One of the biggest for me was constantly asking
myself "What Would Bob Do?" (and this was years before the "what
would jesus do" stickers came out ) and acting accordingly. I wanted
to be like Bob - in fact my goal when I was seventeen was to be the
best streetfighter in Australia - so the easiest thing to do was ask
myself that question and respond accordingly. |
Ken Milling wrote: Yes, I did read the above & also what you mentioned about Terry Oneill. I hope it doesnt come across as me stealing your ideas, thats not my intention. I had a discussion with Steve via email about a similar exercise a while back using Fedor Emelianenko as the example/role model but I had gotten off track/forgotten about the exercise. I was also referring to your thread with regard to doormen & fear etc.
Musashi wrote: At a guess, some people just "have"
this state ready to access and some learn to access it?
I know personally I always pick up low level threat from Mick Coup, even
when he's being funny and helpful. There is that thing in him that he could
just go off any time. I used to get the same from my younger brother, I
commented to him (my brother) once that I never knew if we were going to
fight or train when we met up. He was a bit put out and couldn't understand
what I meant, but he had that potential violence thing simmering away.
Even being around that type of person brings out a low level adrenal
response, adrenal trickle? You know it could go off but probably will not.
I guess you can learn to be that type of personality, when it's On it's all
the way On, no half measures or holding back. It can take time and varied
degrees of sucess, but is doable. Would you really want to become so inured
to stress and conflict that you actually feel nothing though?
I think a certain level of Adrenal dump is fine, it lets you know you have a
real threat to deal with, as long as it doesn't paralyse you that's ok.
There are certain forms of Autism where people just don't "get" normal human
feelings or interaction, stuff like Aspergers Syndrome where folks can
function fairly well but not connect to general human feelings or thoughts.
I am of course not saying that Steve or Mick are afflicted with Autism or
likely to start doing a Rain Man in Vegas!
Just saying that some medical conditions can cause a similar response to
learned or programmed responses? This is not generally seen as a good thing
among mental health professionals, and one might be well advised to not
pursue a course of training that would result in similar brain responses as
displayed in high functioning autistics.
I'll quit now while I'm not (hopefully) incredibly behind, and having Mick
offer me as a strike test dummy !
BN wrote: Thanks for your post, very interesting.
Do you know anything about conditions such as autism or Asperger's syndrome.
Specifically what parts of the brain are affected? Or what causes these
conditions?
I'm just curious. Not going to start hammering out mt frontal lobes or
anything like that.
Musashi wrote:
| Quote: |
| The exact cause of AS is unknown, although research supports the likelihood of a genetic contribution, and brain imaging techniques have identified structural and functional differences in specific regions of the brain. |
| Quote: |
| Neuroanatomical studies and the associations with teratogens strongly suggest that the mechanism includes alteration of brain development soon after conception.[26] Abnormal migration of embryonic cells during fetal development may affect the final structure and connectivity of the brain, resulting in alterations in the neural circuits that control thought and behavior.[30] Several theories of mechanism are available; none are likely to be complete explanations.[31] |
Taken from Wikipedia, so maybe not a definitive answer?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome
Apparently they don't really know how or why some people have it, or why it can be so severe in some cases and not in others. The main difference in people with Aspergers is that they don't readily understand others emotions, can't pick up on body language cues, and can seem odd or insensitive.
That kind of lack of empathy on a basic level seems to be what some are trying to achieve through training and mind mapping?
Steve wrote: Guys, I need to come in here with
some clarification from my experience and observation, but I'm really rushed
today. The Asperger's thing is way off track from my personal experience.
I'll post more as soon as I can.
BN wrote: Thank you for posting that info. I found
the stuff about brain formation and autism very interesting.
Whatever, I suppose that an adrenaline rush is something you either have or
don't have. I don't think you can train it away, just desinsitize youself to
the effects somewhat as Steve intimated.
Steve wrote: In my life I’ve known a number of
extremely dangerous and violent people. Some of them were members of North
London firms, two were Mafia, two were martial artists (namely Gary Spiers
and Terry O’Neill), some I met in the Army and others, ex-Army, SAS, Special
Forces, Paras whom I met after I left the Army, and there were a couple of
doormen. Though all of them by way of their profession had done the business
on numerous occasions, no two of them, personality-wise, were similar. If
you put them all in a room together and talked with them, they would appear
to have little in common. Sure, all of them you could term ‘natural born
killers’ or possibly trained killers. By that, I’m not talking about some
serial killer who takes out old ladies, or some mugger who attacks
unsuspecting victims. I’m talking about guys who take on their own kind.
What were these differences between them? Some were hot-blooded, some were
cold. Some were intellectual, others were just plain dumb. Some were
gregarious, some were silent and brooding. Some were always telling jokes,
others didn’t know what a joke was. You couldn’t generalise. Some were
flamboyant in their expressions, and others didn’t move. Some you’d look in
their eyes and you’d see sparks, and others you’d look in their eyes and it
was just a dead crocodile eye. You really cannot tell by looking.
When I looked up Asperger’s, I didn’t recognize any of the characteristics
either in myself, or in guys I’ve known who are natural born killer types.
It’s the wrong template. Just become someone is antisocial, it's not an
indication of autism or borderline autism; it's not even the same antisocial
from one guy to the next. And in fact, I’m not sure there is a template in
the sense of personality. Sure, the brain is shaped by exposure to violence
at a young age, but to equate the brain of an autistic person to the brain
of someone who has had a violent childhood is crazy. They are two completely
different things. We all have a brain signature, and they're all different.
Disorders such as autism group people together so that they can be treated
more effectively, but you mustn't extend that thinking to form stereotypes
when it comes to fighters.
I used to generalise by referring to partially psychotic, non-neurotic,
extrovert characters because I’d been reading research about high-sensation
seekers and I recognized many of the characteristics in myself. But that
doesn’t really cover the whole picture. I was mainly using this stereotype
as a contrast to the low-sensation seeking, neurotic, introverted types
characteristic of many martial artists and held up as a standard to aspire
to. Geeks.
Let's get away from personality typing and talk about training.
In terms of what I advise people to aspire to: first of all, Asperger’s has
got nothing to do with it. Get that out of your head.
I can’t speak for or about Mick Coup or anybody else. But if you’re worried
about developing social problems as a result of the type of training I
advocate, then here’s what I have to say.
Guys like myself and Mick Coup are able to rationalize this violence that we
have inside of us, and the experiences that have arisen as a consequence of
it. And as professional trainers, we are able to translate the essential
aspects of that rationalization into training. We can articulate what is
important, we can break it down and turn it into drills and conditional
fighting methods, etc. so that when you as an individual engage in it, the
training will produce the necessary mindset, conditioning, athleticism, and
skills with which to fight within different scenarios and situations.
Whilst I’m aware, and I’m sure Mick Coup is aware, that people pick up on
our mindsets (which, incidentally, are quite different from one another),
we’re not actually selling that mindset. We’re trying to enhance you and
develop the mindset and skills, etc. that will work for you. We’re not
trying to make you into versions of us.
Mick Coup and myself are not just selling hand-me-down doorman experiences.
We’re actually analyzing every nut and bolt of this thing, and we’re looking
for what will be important to you. Not what was important, necessarily, to
us. I think I can safely include Mick in this, although Mick feel free to
jump in if you disagree. We're taking the essential components of the
fight/dangerous situation as we understand it to be, and transferring that
into the gym in a very live, full-throttle way WITHOUT YOU GET HURT. And
because we know that people have different learning styles, we have to
engage you in different ways. If one way doesn't work, we'll find another.
Because we understand what we're trying to teach. We're not just passing on
a product. We'll do what we have to do to get you where you need to be in
order to handle yourself in a conflict.
Personally, I guard against my gym becoming an animal-day place. I'm in
control of it. There's a strong esprit de corps and people don't abuse each
other. I don't tolerate that. There is a feeling of all for one and one for
all.
I just want to add a word about empathy. I’m an extremely empathetic person,
as well as being highly emotional. (For Christ sake, I'm a Celt.) But
empathy and sympathy are two different things. Empathy is the ability to
feel what other people are feeling, and that isn’t always warm and fuzzy!
Empathasing allows me to get into the thoughts and feelings, and to read the
actions, of the bad guys as well as the good guys. It helps me to read what
his intentions are toward me or anybody else that might be under threat from
him. And if being friendly and engaging ain't working, I can switch very
quickly and take you out. And then go back to being friendly and engaging
with everybody else. Something which observers say is scary. But that's the
kind of control I'm looking for.
It also helps me to make a kind of a moral choice of how do I deal with this
guy? On very little information I can respond decisively or try to mediate,
and if I’ve had to be ruthless I can justify it to myself that I wasn’t just
acting like a crocodile or a hungry tiger. I was there as a human being
making a decision.
I get this empathy not by wishing for it, but by reading body language in an
animalian, right-brained way. I take in the impressions unconsciously: his
eye, his facial expression, his body posture, the tone of his voice, his
smell maybe—everything—and like an actor or an impressionist, I actually
feel what he’s feeling and think the way he’s thinking. People who are close
to me have accused me of being psychic, but it’s not that. It’s that I’m a
watcher. Unlike a lot of people, I don’t censor the information my
subconscious is giving me according to what’s socially acceptable.
That was one of my problems in the Army. I didn’t like being told what to
do, and if somebody was an arsehole, I didn’t care what rank he was wearing,
I wouldn’t listen to him. Story of my life.
Luciano wrote: Similar about this subject, I
watched the following rugby clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I75bv9ztzko
The fear in the blue team is obvious
So, some primal ritual (of course one more subtle and incorporated in train)
can put a "normal" man in stamina state for fight too?
BN wrote: Thanks for your latest reply. Fascinating stuff. One thing I was curious about when you were listing the "natural born killers," were you ever intimidated or uneasy around any of these people ?
Ken Milling wrote: Luciano,
If the guys in blue are the French team (I think they are) then the Haka
didnt help too much as the all blacks lost that game.
Steve,
As a trainer do you get a sense with guys who you are training as to where
they are at in terms of that 'killer mindset' etc and/or the lack of and the
degree of that 'lack'? Using your empathy/intuition/instinct (whatever it
is-I also have an idea of what you are talking about when people ask are you
psychic-although Im not coming at it from the fight perpsective)
I ask this question because it seems clear to me from what you state in your
DVDs and writing that without the necessary mindset the rest is purely
academic.
A number of years ago I sent in a letter to your web site and mentioned a
street fighter who I befriended (Rod) & the impression he made on me with
regard to his mind set & mine. I think I stated something like 'I was a lamb
in a land of wolves).
To return to the animal analogy! Can the lamb become a wolf and/or might he
have to settle for becoming something less? Is this something that you have
a sense of? How far a person can go and the potential limitations?
Steve wrote: BN, in that company I felt perfectly
comfortable. Not intimidated.
There are things that scare me, but they aren't physical dangers or anything
to do with martial arts. But those are very personal things.
On the haka, what I've always found from intimidation is that it sometimes
raises the game of the other person. Although, when I watch the haka it's
entertaining, but that kind of open, aggressive intimidation shouldn't scare
you. That kind of display has showed you the level you've got to go to to
beat him. But it's the guy who doesn't show anything, no signature, no
front, that's the guy you've got to worry about. And your perception has got
to be more acute in order to read the cues that are signalling to you
'danger.' They're there, but they're not as obvious as the haka would make
it out to be!
Ken, this is a question that everybody's got on their mind. If we took an
example of aggressor/dissimilar training, you have to really think, act, and
be like your enemy in every way. It's a bit like method acting. I'll just
say to you, that if I@m walking down the street, sometimes you look at
situations and you actually visualise yourself doing the business on people
who don't even know you. You take on characteristics which you wouldn't
normally have unless a situation arose, but you run through the
visualisation of that not just lying in your bed, but actually sitting on
the bus, train, walking down the street, etc. and you run through the
scenario. And you see people (who are completely innocent) as if they were
adversaries. It's a 'what if' game. And you can play that in your mind, get
accustomed to being an aggressor.
If a mugger wants your wallet, it's not a spontaneous act. He's planned it.
It's gone through his mind. He's seen you as a mark. He's visualising how
he's going to go about it: what he'll say, how he'll move, etc. It's no
different to a javelin thrower mentally running through the throw before he
performs it.
if you rely purely on your training, or situations, to bring about this kind
of mindset, you won't get it. You have to be working on that mindset outside
of training, outside of situations, as if you were the predator. Or, as if
you were going to be the prey but you intended to not be a victim. So in
that case, you'd visualise people as attackers. And you visualise the
complete business on the person/people. Which one do I go for first, how do
I go about doing it. You can practice this mentally on an innocent group of
people. And the beauty is, it can be going on in your mind and nobody needs
to know anything about it. You're feeling and sensing the whole thing.
Now, with regard to prey, horses effectively are prey (to cougars, wolves,
whatever). So are sheep. But I'll tell you what, Ken, both of these species
have injured me, worse than lots of so-called predatory guys. So the point
is, if your nature isn't predatory that doesn't automatically mean you have
to be a victim. I've heard that a giraffe can kick off the head of a lion.
The important thing is, the giraffe didn't want to be the lion's dinner.
So if you can't get the predatory mindset, then run your mental drilling as
the sheep who fights back.
Back at Bourne Hill House, we used to have a farm manager who was a real
hard South African, knew the animal business inside out. And we needed to
catch this sheep (we had a group of castrated rams that we called 'The
Ramettes'). Wayne had cornered him and was about to rugby-tackle him and the
Ramette just shot straight at Wayne, did a flying headbutt, and took him
out, flattened him, then crashed straight through an oak post and rail fence
and was off.
Wayne got up and we looked at each other and just said, 'Fuck it. Let him
go.'
You could be that sheep, Ken. And you ain't been castrated (well, I hope!)
Oh, and about Wayne. This guy was so tough, once he got bitten by a snake on
the grounds and didn't even know about it until a couple of days later when
he found the fang marks on his leg. He was genuinely puzzled. 'I thought I
felt something,' he said. 'When I was in the muck heap.'
